Christian Nationalism: Biblical or Dangerous? Doug Wilson vs Mike Bird

What does Christian political witness look like in a plural, polarized democracy and should Christians ever aim for a “Christian nation”? In this episode of Premier Unbelievable?, John Nelson hosts a frank and high-stakes conversation on Christian nationalism, secularism, and the future of liberal democracy. Doug Wilson, pastor of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, argues that nations are moral agents accountable to God, and defends a vision he calls “theocratic libertarianism” - limited government, but explicitly Christian moral foundations. Dr. Michael Bird, biblical scholar and Anglican priest, agrees politics is never neutral, but warns that certain models of Christian nationalism risk disenfranchising minorities, repeating Europe’s religious conflicts, and undermining the freedom required for genuine faith. From immigration and pluralism to abortion, marriage, and religious liberty, this conversation asks: Can secularism actually protect Christian society? Who gets full civic rights in a “Christian republic”? Is Christian nationalism a renewal of moral order or a road to coercion? How should Jesus’ model of leadership reshape political ambition? Join us as we dive into one of the most contested questions in public Christianity today. 00:00 – Intro: Christian witness or “Christian nationalism” 01:11 – Definitions: nationalism, theocracy, Christendom 01:37 – Doug’s core claim: states are moral agents 02:38 – “Theocratic libertarianism” explained 03:56 – Bird: why CN is often “more than that” 05:33 – Doug: “Mere Christendom” and Christendom 2.0 08:53 – Bird: “Which Christianity?” and minority rights concern 11:05 – Bird: secularism as peace mechanism 12:31 – Doug: pluralism/immigration changes the nation 18:46 – Scripture: Doug (Exodus 18) and limited government 21:26 – Scripture: Bird (Romans 13) and liberal and democracy 35:45 – Civic rights: can non-Christians vote/hold office? 37:14 – Doug: human rights vs citizen rights (“vote? no”) 51:50 – Test case: ectopic pregnancy legality 56:33 – “White nationalism?” and race/ethnicity debate 1:12:18 – Closing: Jesus, power, service and final hypothetical • Support us: https://www.premierunbelievable.com/g... • Subscribe to the Unbelievable? podcast: https://www.premier.plus/unbelievable • More shows, free eBook & newsletter: https://premierunbelievable.com - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PremierUnbel... - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/premierunbe... - TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@premierunbeli... - X (Twitter) https://x.com/unbelievablefe - Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/unbelievable...